I have read NERF's "terms and conditions" from top to bottom and also every post to date on this page (8/09/08). What sickens me more than the 'enterprising leeches' who came up with this scheme (I am educated Mr. Stubbs, you just can't confuse me) is the complicity of the merchants who offer it. One can only imagine how NERF markets this to merchants to make them think it is actually in their best interest as consumer-oriented businesses to offer this scheme. I received this ploy from New Windows For America in MN which is heavily advertised on the radio, and which brags about their service awards. Their salesman gave no details about NERF but emphasized the dollar figure AFTER the 'rebate', and did not inspire confidence in the company as a whole. After reading the terms and conditions later (I did not purchase anything) I was appalled by the shoddy practices outlined. Mr. Stubbs protests that the rebate is really a 'bonus', implying that consumers should be happy for whatever they get and even thank them! This is not the Soviet Union, Comrade - why don't you and your cronies get real jobs like the rest of us?

For all the hoopla from the non-believers, especially UCAN(from San Diego), they had to eat their words and beg NERF to allow a customer to resubmit their vouchers after UCAN had made the customer register late.

Wow, a consumer advocate that was admitting they were wrong, they had messed up the customers opportunity to participate in the NERF program? Unheard of! But thats exactly what happened.

Yet, they didn't believe in the NERF program, supposedly. I thought it was a scam UCAN? If it doesn't work, why did you request the customer have his vouchers accepted & registered after you had messed up this good guy?

So there you go! IT DOES WORK & UCAN KNOWS IT & ADMITTED IT WAS THEIR FAULT!

Unlike what has been stated by Tim Stubbs, the sales representative did NOT explain anything about NERF before beginning his sales pitch about the New Windows for America products. I am a very cynical and non-trusting person when it comes to sales people and certainly felt that after the sales pitch the rebate fell into the too good to be true category.

The windows we were considering cost approximately $21000 for 18 windows and 2 patio doors. After the 75% "rebate" the cost to us would be $4250 - a very good deal. Then I turned to the Internet to see what others had to say and found this web site.

There's one main question I would like Mr. Stubbs to answer: Why aren't the terms and conditions of the rebate (i.e. the fine print) fully explained on your web site? I do plan on emailing you for the terms and conditions but am really skeptical about your company since you are keeping the terms and conditions such a secret. The entire rebate scheme is dependent upon the fine print and you won't publish it or let people see it until they have purchase products from an affiliated dealer. That's laughable!

On the positive side - I am impressed that you have taken the time to address our questions and concerns on this forum.

Tim puts his name behind his posts for all to see....but those that have a problem with NERF fail to put up thier full names or any name at all. Isn't this Internet thing a great invention, you can say anything about anybody no ramifacations, no responsibility........what if I posted as Anonymous and said that EVERY post so far has been from contractors that have not been allowed to be a part of NERF and that this is thier way of trying to get back.....would you believe this to be true because I posted it?? should you?? Maybe try talking direct to the parties involved, first, call Anonymous, then call NERF and talk to them.

It Looks like this company is about to get pinched. With an attorney General filing suit, it usually means they have done their homework about the deception in the business practices. Attorney Generals dont file Frivilous suits against people!!!!

Tim Stubbs, You mention paying out 26 valid claims to date... Can you, or are you willing to disclose how many vouchers were originally issued? Then, can you or will you disclose how many people sent in for their rebate checks, that were dis-qualified in their attempt to claim their rebate?

I fully agree with the fact that their will be slippage, but lets just see the numbers.

I have a feeling this information will not be made available, except MAYBE in the court case that has been filed..

I see there being two different loser groups here.
1) the customer who will never see their rebate $$
2) the businesses that were dooped by the NFR or NREF and offer the rebates. Because in the end those businesses are going to be the ones who get the bad publicity and are going to be left to answer to the consumers that are left with nothing....

Colorado Operators Of National Energy Rebate Fund Being Sued By Wisconsin For Deceptive Marketing Practices
Thu, 10/04/2007 - 09:08 — admin
Department of Justice Adds Defendants To Lawsuit Against Dane County Window Retailer Accused of Using Misleading “100% Rebate” Scheme to Sell Its Window Products
October 3, 2007 -- MADISON — Wisconsin Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen announced today that his office has expanded a consumer protection lawsuit to include a Colorado company, National Rebate Fund, Inc. The state’s original action, filed in June 2007 in Dane County Circuit Court, was brought against Kool View Co., Inc., of McFarland, Wisconsin, and alleged that Kool View used misleading representations in its marketing of “100% rebates” from the purchase of windows and other products, ostensibly tied to a participation in an “energy field study.” After the state brought its action, Kool View agreed to stop marketing the “NERF” rebates.

According to the state’s complaint, National Rebate Fund, Inc. offers rebates to consumers through its program known as the National Energy Rebate Fund, or NERF. The lawsuit alleges that Kool View and the National Rebate Fund, Inc. have engaged in deceptive marketing of the NERF rebate program. Among the defendants’ representations that the state alleges are false, deceptive or misleading include:

1. That sufficient funds are set aside to pay rebate claims;

2. That the escrowed rebate funds are invested and mature during the four-year waiting period before consumers can claim their rebates;

3. That the rebate program is tied to participation in an “energy field study;”

4. That the rebates are funded by the savings generated from the reduction in traditional media advertising by the participating merchants;

5. That the rebates are similar to typical consumer rebates, or to insurance policies;

6. That the rebate payments are handled by an unbiased, independent third-party company;

7. That the rebates are limited to the first 100 customers, or are being offered only for a limited time.

According to the complaint, since 2005, Kool View customers have received NERF rebate vouchers totaling over three million dollars. These vouchers have been represented to be redeemable four years after issuance. On average, Kool View rebate customers hold vouchers with a face value of approximately $15,000, with some consumers holding rebate vouchers exceeding $40,000. However, the rebate fund contains at most only 8% of the amount required to redeem the entire rebate vouchers issued.

In addition to adding National Rebate Fund, Inc. as a defendant, the amended complaint adds as defendants to the suit the owner of National Rebate Fund, Inc., Timothy Stubbs, and two other key employees of the company, Dan Golden and Matthew Stubbs. The three individual defendants all reside in Grand Junction, Colorado, which is also where National Rebate Fund, Inc., is located.

The amended complaint also names as a defendant Alan Anderson, the owner of Kool View Co., Inc., who resides in Madison, Wisconsin.

The case was investigated and referred to the Department of Justice by the Wisconsin Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection. In its suit the state seeks an injunction prohibiting the defendants from further marketing of the rebate program, as well as forfeitures for violations of Wisconsin consumer protection laws and restitution for injured Wisconsin consumers.

The suit has been assigned to Dane County Circuit Court Judge Steven Ebert. The State is being represented by Assistant Attorneys General Lara Sutherlin and John Greene.

Source: Wisconsin Attorney General

ANYTIME !! ANYONE ! tells me This is FREE !! Then I know it must be a Dam LIE !!

I hope someone Sues the Hell out or NERF and any Company that is connected to NERF !

I really HATE SCAMS and as soon as I looked at the NERF Website ,, I knew in my Hear they were SCAMING People .

It would Tickle me to death if Some Aging Senior Citizen went to that Company and Shot Everyone that works there and I would give the Guy a MEDAL !!

I see Secure Roofing here in San Diego riding around in their Cars and Trucks Advertising the FREE ROOFING Scam Because that Dealer is associated with NERF and their SCAMS !

And I'm Sure that sooner or Later someone will take them to COURT and Fry their Ass real Good and I hope I get on that JURY so I can Award the Biggest Fine in History !!

I was offered this rebate scheme by a sunroom company beginning to do business in South Central Alaska this (2007) summer. As stated above, the conditions are clearly engineered to prevent successful claims. One item on the "REBATE PROMOTION CONDITIONS" that I have not seen on the scans above, point 6 says "NRF shall only be bound to honor any claim for payment from the Fund if:". Under that, sub point (f) says: "the Goods have been returned to the Merchant within twelve months of the date of purchase, lease or hire agreement, for a complete or partial refund of the price paid for it. NRF and/or FA may require verification from the Merchant and may postpone payment pending receipt of such verification".

As I read this, you can never collect the rebate UNLESS you return the merchandise for a full or partial refund within 12 months. I can provide a scan of the "SAMPLE" rebate promotion conditions I was given.

I am telling the truth. I am sorry you just fail to understand. The fact is most every company has money in their budget for marketing, advertising and incentives. The way the program works is by shifting some of these dollars into the NERF program. Instead of buying expensive and ineffective newspaper ads or other media, they use those dollars to pay the premiums to NERF. By offering the program in the remaining advertising they run, they get much greater response to those ads. So, they can spend less on advertising and generate the same (usually more) leads. Also, they get a substantial amount of free advertising from the customers that do buy and refer their friends and neighbors. Do you begin to see how making a company leaner and more cost effective in their marketing and advertising frees up the money for the program? We have a Dealer Agreement that every dealer signs and it mandates that consumer are NOT charged for participation NOR can the dealer raise their prices to cover the cost. We send out a survery to EVERY consumer who receives a voucher and this allows us to make sure that all information is being provided, explainations of the claim process has taken place, that the pricing is equivilent to other companies who don't offer the rebate, that consumers are buying BETTER more energy efficient products because of the rebate incenitve and much more. We police the program thoroughly and if we ever find a dealer charging for participation or lacking in providing the information, explainations and brochures, they are notified of the default and canceled from the program if they do not resolve the issue within 5 days. I am happy to share a full survey with you and the summarized results from across the nation. The results prove that the program works! Just email me. I am happy to respond to any question to ensure understanding. I know by educating you about your areas of ignorance you will be able to make an informed, intelligent statement rather than spreading false inuendo and uneducated opinions that are just plain wrong. And then, you will be able to sign your name to your statements rather than hiding behind 'anonymous'!

He is not telling then truth when he says that the consumer does not pay a premium. NERF charges the companies that offer this program for every voucher and the cost is substantial. These companies must pass on these costs to the consumer so saying that it is free is just not true!